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Injuries are a part of football (and fantasy) |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 9:29:39 AM |
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Injuries are a part of football (and fantasy)
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| It sucks when you trade for a player and he immediately gets hurt. And I completely understand why both sides would want to trade back after an immediate injury happens. But I'm not completely sure how I feel about letting this kind of trade reversal happen. At the very least, this reversal can't happen until after Week 4 is over because Zach started Tua. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 9:33:11 AM |
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Agree with Stu
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| It sucks (Especially for Tua) but have to wait until next week for any action. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 10:11:06 AM |
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I think we are all on the same page - I just didn't reverse the trade the proper way
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I also agree that Tua has to be Zach's week 4 QB. So does Zach (though I'll let him speak for himself on this). But since I feel like the Dolphins lied about Tua and that contributed to his injury, I offered to reverse the trade late last night, and submitted it to Zach with all players involved. I just assumed Zach would be stuck having played Tua this week. I didn't think about the technical ramifications of Tua coming back to me mid-week; I just wanted Zach to have his original players back. What I should've done was make a trade offer this week that switches Ertz and 11MB back to me and Andrews + JuJu back to Zach. Then next week I can trade 1 MB to Zach and I get Tua back, returning all players and MBs to their original team.
Would people be comfortable with this? Only Tua stays traded this week, and he gets traded back next week? |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 10:58:02 AM |
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Trade
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I clearly hear all of the voiced points. All valid. To be transparent, I didn't go to Jeremy and ask him to reverse this trade. We had been talking about it a few days and it wasn't a rash decision. We discussed for quite sometime over a lengthy thread. There was a voice in the back of my head that gave me funny tummy feelings, but I was truly acting as a manager and based on what the NFL was saying he would have been - Probable, if that designation still existed. Numbers wise he was second in the league and a stack for me. Felt fair and worked for both of us. I totally get injuries happen. What happened last night doesn't seem like an isolated tackle event. People were egregious and irresponsible letting him go out there. But how are we to know that when the news (that we get from about ALL players) is so off base that when he takes a shot, his hands stiffen from neurological damage. Anyway. His health was clearly was in the balance.
I told Keith and Jeremy this morning that owners would question the reverse trade, but I took it anyway. I'm happy to keep my QB slot empty (He scored 0 points) and wouldn't expect (nor accept the idea) to have a "second chance" on QB points this week. I don't think that's the core of the issue. I told J and K as much. I think we were operating on the premise of fair trade value. Mark Andrews and Juju for Ertz and a broken/IR Tua would likely not pass in another league that operates on a majority vote approval by the league. I just have less than mediocre QB's and I was eager to upgrade. That's on me. It sets a precident, and I'll muster through however the league deems equitable.
Happy to re-reverse the trade, override any QB score if a name needs to be there for the system, leave empty, etc. It certainly doesn't need to be a cloud hanging over the season. That's the last thing we need.
I really just hope the kid is okay, and the medical staff gets repremanded, sued, or fired. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 10:59:06 AM |
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Honestly, I don't know if I like that any better
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| Unfortunately, it's basically an all-around shitty situation. The two of you made a trade based on the information that was available. It turns out that not all pertinent information was available at the time of the trade. Then after a game was played, everything changed. It definitely sucks for Zach, but is it fair to his opponent and other teams battling for playoff position with him to just undo everything? I'm not sure if there is an easy answer to this. But mostly, as we head into uncharted territory (once again) I thinks it's something that deserves league discussion in case a situation like this comes up again. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 11:08:45 AM |
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There is not a situation like this defined in the rule book
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| I am personally not questioning the initial trade… my 2 cents is the initial trade need to stand pat until the end of the NFL week, then if the two teams want, they can trade again trade same players back to each other. Also, open to other ideas.. but for sure the champ started Tua in a game so that piece can’t change IMO. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 11:25:52 AM |
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Rational minds all around
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What is this, the Twilight Zone?
My 2 Yuan:
The trade was fairly proposed and accepted.
Tua's injury was disturbing and calls into question a lot of things--none of which are pertinent to fantasy football.
Reversing the trade comes from a good spot, both in terms of Jeremy being willing to reverse it and Zach being willing to un-reverse the reverse. All class and both of you are good dudes.
Injuries in fantasy football suck, but they're a part of the game. I'm sure this wasn't the first time a player suffered a serious injury right after being involved in a trade, and it won't be the last.
Part of the reason we're sympathetic to Zach (or at least, why I am) is b/c of the significance of both the player and the seriousness of the injury. It feels unfair. But IMO, these are details that shouldn't factor into how this is handled--this should be a black or white policy. We either decide that once a trade is accepted it cannot be undone, or we decide that if a player suffers a serious injury within the first week he is traded then the trade is voided.
The problem with the void option is that it opens many more doors that are subject to interpretation, when the whole point is to have a rule that closes loopholes. What is considered a serious injury? What if we don't know the seriousness of the injury until later, etc.
My concern with reversing the trade is that it sets a precedent that puts future owners in a difficult situation. The next time this happens (and it WILL happen), what if the next person in Jeremy's role doesn't offer to reverse the trade? Is he an asshole? Or does he need to worry that people think he's an asshole? Each time this happens it puts two owners in an uncomfortable situation... |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 11:35:09 AM |
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Thank you guys for weighing in. Sorry for making a mess
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| I personally didn't think through any of these larger ramifications, but I see where people are coming from. I want to re-emphasize that this wasn't something Zach asked for at all. This was my idea, done at a point where it looked like Tua could be like SERIOUSLY hurt. So my apologies for acting rashly and causing a mess. If this requires the approval of the league, or a rule change, I understand and won't fight about it. Just know this was not done to subvert rules or harm other Ragnarok teams; rather, it was a hastily done attempt to do what felt morally right and remedy a shitty situation. I hope that can still happen. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 11:48:48 AM |
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I put in the re-reversable.
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Jeremy and I will deal with any future trades after next week, as needed. I miss this progresive interchange! Thanks for being the league that we've always been. This was part of the excitement Jeremy and I felt in the negotiations this week! I won't devulge deets, but we even had a mega deal in the works. There was a lot of evolution. We had tunnel vision. It's a fun part of FF that we haven't had the last couple of seasons. Not sure there were even any trades last year!
Football! |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 1:10:17 PM |
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FREEDOM
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I think this may not be as complicated as it appears on the surface? An official trade happened and cannot be "undone," a traded player was officially started and then became injured, and a player who started cannot be traded until the next week begins (just like a player who started cannot be waived for free agency in the same week).
Therefore, this is a fairly straightforward process. Tua's trade should go through and Tua should be started. And then once Week 5 arrives on Tuesday morning, it is up to the Gamblers and Bruins to determine if they want to do any more trades that involve Tua. Prior to then, they can also decide if they want to do any kind of re-re-re-reverse trades for the other players involved in the original trade (and perhaps have a gentleman's agreement for next week). As long as there is not anti-competitive collusion (such as planning to trade for a bye week and then trade back afterwards, or planning to spitefully stack a team for the playoffs), trades are legal. Even when being Mr. Nice Guy.
Once Week 5 arrives, it's totally up to those owners to decide if they want to delve into a philosophical discussion about fantasy football honor. As a league, we don't need to concern ourselves with any sense of "fairness" or trying to determine if the Miami Dolphins medical staff was negligent, etc. And we certainly don't want to introduce subjectivity about post-trade injury considerations or about whether or not our league needs to approve trades. We all know that trades that don't involve the Thunder are honorable. And if we ever determine that anti-competitive collusion was attempted, that is a capital offense and the consequences would match the crime.
With all of this being said, I think our current rules set is ok but we could flesh it out a bit more if there are any gaps or anything that could be improved by additional verbiage.
I did notice that in the other leagues, it is illegal for Team A and Team B to trade a player and then trade that player back. We currently don't have that in our rules book and maybe that's a good thing because if we did then the discussed scenario would be legally nixed. The reason that rule exists in other leagues is because it is the most direct way to prevent shenanigans by random owners. But in Ragnarok, we have a stellar and permanent ownership group. I don't know if this type of rule should be added to our rules book, but I'm open to it if someone wanted to make a case for doing so. |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 4:27:23 PM |
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OK, final decision: Andrews, JuJu back to Bruins, Ertz and MBs back to Gamblers. I'll get Tua next week
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| I don't plan on making a habit of offering to undo trades, but this felt like an extraordinary circumstance where Tua looked like his career was over. I think the only person affected here is me, so hopefully others won't feel put out. Now I gotta go talk to Ertz - he can't be happy about being traded then sent right back. |
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Mushmouth
Scout
67 posts
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Fu: 58.90 |
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Posted - 9/30/2022 7:53:09 PM |
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Timing
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| In catching up with everything (training a new guy at work, so couldn't keep up today) I think the only reason this became a discussion is due to the timing of the reversal. I'm pretty sure from reading all this, we all understood the reason that Jeremy would be sympathetic over the situation and would offer to undo the trade. It was pretty clear that it wasn't malicious intent or trying to game the rules as Tua got a whopping 0 last night and suffered a pretty brutal injury. In my opinion, the rules as they are stated on reprimand for collusion and bad faith trades don't really apply here. Had this trade happened next Tuesday I don't think there would be nearly this much discussion. The main eyebrow raising part here was that Zach had started Tua and then traded him back before the week was over. Since the reasoning behind that was explained and Zach can't start a different QB this week, I'm fine with it and it's their prerogative to reverse the trade if they see fit. |
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Coach Cowher Tomlin
Football Freak
997 posts
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Fu: 100.96 |
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Posted - 10/1/2022 6:39:05 AM |
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I hate this League
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Everyone is so disgustingly......nice. Sheesh what a bunch of tree-hugging pussies.
Love y'all! |
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Posted - 10/2/2022 8:29:15 AM |
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Toppsy Tradesy
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First, I do not see any foul play or malicious conduct by either or for that matter anyone in the league not named Keith. Maybe it is a matter of the timing of the trade and the system automating things as they happen, why would the entire trade be nulified? Shouldn't Jeremy have Andrews for the weekend or prior to an official trade back, week 5? I am yet to find an announcement stating Tua is out for the season. At this point we know he had a bad week.
I have no objection to the Gamblers and Tough working out something on the backside of the trade. I do want to echo what Sean said. Should any of us expect a reversed trade post injury? This is like giving putts on the course. If you play you have been there, it is all fun and everyone loves each other until you make your freind putt a 3 footer downhill that misses for a double and loses the side.
I will set the precedent for the Bass: I would have woke my wife up, told her the guy I just traded away went down. She would have said, "do you feel bad and please stop poking me with that". I would have said, "Glad he isn't on my team, fuck the Dolphins."
I would also expect the same treatment back, unless I trade with Gamblers.
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